Discussion:
[ru] EN: to kill a chop
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Nikolai Kanykin
2010-10-03 09:03:05 UTC
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Здравствуйте!


Фраза из известного стихотворения Гинзберга (привожу его ниже полностью).

Там Уитмен спрашивает у продавцов: Who killed the pork chops?

В тех переводах, которые я нашел, это место выражено так:

1. А.Пустогаров: Откуда эта свинина? (http://www.stihi.ru/2007/01/11-957)

2. А.Кальмейер: Кто зарезал свинье отбивные?
(http://art-of-arts.livejournal.com/104748.html)

3. А.Сергеев: Кто убил поросят? (http://www.uspoetry.ru/poem/66)

В комментариях к первому переводу В.Маркелов пишет:
<Who killed the pork chops?> - идиома, как мне кажется, означающая - <свежие
ли свиные отбивные?>

Мои вопросы сообществу:

1) как понимать Who killed the pork chops? и

2) прав ли Маркелов? Тогда верным будет перевод "Когда хрюкали эти
отбивные?"

3) Есть ли у коллег свои мнения по поводу перевода верлибра? Найденные в
сети 17 ссылок на запрос "пеервод верлибра" я прочитал.

Заранее благодарен.

Стих:

A Supermarket in California--Allen Ginsberg
What thoughts I have of you tonight, Walt Whitman, for
I walked down the sidestreets under the trees with a headache
self-conscious looking at the full moon.
In my hungry fatigue, and shopping for images, I went
into the neon fruit supermarket, dreaming of your enumerations!
What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families
shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the
avocados, babies in the tomatoes!--and you, Garcia Lorca, what
were you doing down by the watermelons?

I saw you, Walt Whitman, childless, lonely old grubber,
poking among the meats in the refrigerator and eyeing the grocery
boys.
I heard you asking questions of each: Who killed the
pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel?
I wandered in and out of the brilliant stacks of cans
following you, and followed in my imagination by the store
detective.
We strode down the open corridors together in our
solitary fancy tasting artichokes, possessing every frozen
delicacy, and never passing the cashier.

Where are we going, Walt Whitman? The doors close in
an hour. Which way does your beard point tonight?
(I touch your book and dream of our odyssey in the
supermarket and feel absurd.)
Will we walk all night through solitary streets? The
trees add shade to shade, lights out in the houses, we'll both be
lonely.

Will we stroll dreaming of the lost America of love
past blue automobiles in driveways, home to our silent cottage?
Ah, dear father, graybeard, lonely old courage-teacher,
what America did you have when Charon quit poling his ferry and
you got out on a smoking bank and stood watching the boat
disappear on the black waters of Lethe?

С уважением

--
Николай Каныкин

Сообщение отправлено 101003 в 12:02 Эст.




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Elena Ostrovskaya
2010-10-03 14:15:28 UTC
Permalink
здравствуйте, Николай!
Спасибо за отвлечение от будничных забот в воскресенье. Надолго
отвлечься не получится, поэтому отвечу коротко, но, вероятно, будет с
кем обсудить Гинзберга завтра, так что, может быть, будет и
продолжение.
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
1) как понимать Who killed the pork chops? и
2) прав ли Маркелов? Тогда верным будет перевод "Когда хрюкали эти
отбивные?"
Очень беглым поиском никакую идиому обнаружить не удалось, но, по
логике, здесь должна быть не идиома. Уитман здесь странный старик,
пристающий к мальчикам-продавцам в супермаркете. Из трех вопросов
только один звучит естественно - про цену на бананы - и тот вроде как
не лишен эротического подтекста. Вопрос про отбивные - первый и
привлекает внимание своей странностью, с одной стороны, и некоторым
очеловечиванием мира вокруг , с другой. Чем, в том числе, и славен
Уитмен, а также отвращением к убийству.
При этом прагматический смысл вопроса, насколько я понимаю, в том,
откуда свинина, то есть скорее "Где бегали", чем "Когда хрюкали",
хотя мне это не кажется неудачной интерпретацией. Прием здесь, на мой
взгляд, важнее конкретных слов. Хотя лично я бы остановилась на
честном Кто убил, но я грешу буквализмом.
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
3) Есть ли у коллег свои мнения по поводу перевода верлибра?
Тут я не очень поняла, какого рода мнение Вы ожидаете получить?
Верлибр, как правило, переводится верлибром. А вот что делать с длиной
строки, ритмом конкретного стиха, возможно ритмизацией его в отдельных
отрывках оригинала или перевода или спорадически возникающими рифмами
- решение каждого отдельного переводчика. На свой страх и риск.
Но оговорюсь, что я не переводчик верлибра, я занималась поэтическим
переводом как исследователь, но верлибра в том, чем я знаималась, было
мало, и я его не выделяла и не типизировала.

ЛО

PS Вот, кстати, неплохой анализ этого стихотворения, даже странно, что
на таком ресурсе. Хотя я не предлагаю доверять каждому слову, далеко
не все в интерпретации автора кажется мне убедительным.
http://www.gradesaver.com/allen-ginsbergs-poetry/study-guide/section7/


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2010-10-03 16:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Hello, Nikolay,

I'm going to do a bit of research on this later, but my first impression is that this phrase has a homoerotic (probably argot) subtext - both because Whitman and Lorca were gay (as was Ginsberg), and because Ginsberg refers to Whitman "eyeing the grocery boys" and asking of each "Who killed the pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel?" The last two (What price bananas? Are you my Angel?) could readily be seen as gay references. I'm much less sure about killing the pork chops - but still it's a hunch.

Elliott
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
Здравствуйте!
Фраза из известного стихотворения Гинзберга (привожу его ниже полностью).
Там Уитмен спрашивает у продавцов: Who killed the pork chops?
1. А.Пустогаров: Откуда эта свинина? (http://www.stihi.ru/2007/01/11-957)
2. А.Кальмейер: Кто зарезал свинье отбивные?
(http://art-of-arts.livejournal.com/104748.html)
3. А.Сергеев: Кто убил поросят? (http://www.uspoetry.ru/poem/66)
<Who killed the pork chops?> - идиома, как мне кажется, означающая - <свежие
ли свиные отбивные?>
1) как понимать Who killed the pork chops? и
2) прав ли Маркелов? Тогда верным будет перевод "Когда хрюкали эти
отбивные?"
3) Есть ли у коллег свои мнения по поводу перевода верлибра? Найденные в
сети 17 ссылок на запрос "пеервод верлибра" я прочитал.
Заранее благодарен.
A Supermarket in California--Allen Ginsberg
What thoughts I have of you tonight, Walt Whitman, for
I walked down the sidestreets under the trees with a headache
self-conscious looking at the full moon.
In my hungry fatigue, and shopping for images, I went
into the neon fruit supermarket, dreaming of your enumerations!
What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families
shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the
avocados, babies in the tomatoes!--and you, Garcia Lorca, what
were you doing down by the watermelons?
I saw you, Walt Whitman, childless, lonely old grubber,
poking among the meats in the refrigerator and eyeing the grocery
boys.
I heard you asking questions of each: Who killed the
pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel?
I wandered in and out of the brilliant stacks of cans
following you, and followed in my imagination by the store
detective.
We strode down the open corridors together in our
solitary fancy tasting artichokes, possessing every frozen
delicacy, and never passing the cashier.
Where are we going, Walt Whitman? The doors close in
an hour. Which way does your beard point tonight?
(I touch your book and dream of our odyssey in the
supermarket and feel absurd.)
Will we walk all night through solitary streets? The
trees add shade to shade, lights out in the houses, we'll both be
lonely.
Will we stroll dreaming of the lost America of love
past blue automobiles in driveways, home to our silent cottage?
Ah, dear father, graybeard, lonely old courage-teacher,
what America did you have when Charon quit poling his ferry and
you got out on a smoking bank and stood watching the boat
disappear on the black waters of Lethe?
С уважением
--
Николай Каныкин
Сообщение отправлено 101003 в 12:02 Эст.
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Nikolai Kanykin
2010-10-03 16:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Здравствуйте!

Спасибо, Лена и Элиотт!

(Гомо)сексуальный подтекст, наверное, есть, но это - второй слой, который
скрывается под внешне обычными магазинными фразами, а меня сейчас
интересует, есть ли для англоязычного уха какой-то прямой смысл в выражении
Who killed the pork chops? То есть, задаст ли кто-то такой вопрос в мясной
лавке в англоязычной стране без заднего умысла?

И еще - для меня было новым употребление grocery boys как общего описания
продавцов в супермаркете. Это тоже общепринятое применение, или поэтическая
вольность?

Спасибо.

--
Николай Каныкин

Сообщение отправлено 101004 в 19:35 Эст.



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Elena Ostrovskaya
2010-10-03 16:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Общеязыковая вольность: мальчишки из бакалеи / продуктового / мясного отдела.
Ну то есть не обязательно мальчишки, можно парнишки, ребята и тд, с
такими общими словами, как известно, одна морока. Но вообще по-моему,
так: не термин, а бытовой парафраз. В советских/российских реалиях
обычно скорее девушка из мясного отдела:) Гинзбергу не подошло бы.
ЛО
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
И еще - для меня было новым употребление grocery boys как общего описания
продавцов в супермаркете. Это тоже общепринятое применение, или поэтическая
вольность?
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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-03 16:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
(Гомо)сексуальный подтекст, наверное, есть, но это - второй слой, который
скрывается под внешне обычными магазинными фразами, а меня сейчас
интересует, есть ли для англоязычного уха какой-то прямой смысл в
выражении
Who killed the pork chops? То есть, задаст ли кто-то такой вопрос в мясной
лавке в англоязычной стране без заднего умысла?
It's not what you'd call an ordinary conversational question, but the
meaning (без подтекста - which I don't know; although "poking among the
meats" is pretty obvious, since "meat"="flesh" and poking is... what they
do) would be clear: where did this meat come from? Even the Cliff
notes-equivalent points that out:
"These lines use supermarket imagery to denote a primal kind of sexuality,
rooted in nature but bastardized by the profit motive of industrialized
society. But they also pose questions of economics. In Whitman's day it
would have been natural for the consumer of food to know where the food came
from, who killed it, and how it got to their table. What is unsaid, yet
implied, is that Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees."
http://www.gradesaver.com/allen-ginsbergs-poetry/study-guide/section7/
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
И еще - для меня было новым употребление grocery boys как общего описания
продавцов в супермаркете. Это тоже общепринятое применение, или
поэтическая
вольность?
Again, it's not a usual expression, but it's clearly understandable, along
with the innuendo. Normally, one speaks of "grocery store
clerks/stockers/employees" - or, in contemporary corporativist lingo which
had not yet been installed in Ginsberg's day, "associates." Ginsberg is
imagining Whitman, "poking among the meats," interested mainly in the male
ones, so it's an easy shift to "boys."

R.



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Natalie Shahova
2010-10-03 17:01:09 UTC
Permalink
А это грамматически правильно сказано?
Post by Rachel Douglas
Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees."
Наталья Ш


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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-03 17:06:30 UTC
Permalink
From: "Natalie Shahova" <natalie.shahova-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <ruslantra-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 1:01 PM
Subject: [ru] would not be able to be answered
Post by Natalie Shahova
А это грамматически правильно сказано?
Post by Rachel Douglas
Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees."
Да.

Сотрудники магазина не знали бы ответа на вопрос Уитмана. Но у нас очень
гибкий и сильный пассив.

Рейчел



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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-03 17:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rachel Douglas
Post by Rachel Douglas
Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees."
Сотрудники магазина не знали бы ответа на вопрос Уитмана.
Or, maybe in Russian... "не могут знать ..." ?

R.



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Alexander Palatash
2010-10-03 17:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rachel Douglas
Post by Rachel Douglas
Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees."
Сотрудники магазина не знали бы ответа на вопрос Уитмана.
Не смогли бы ответить.

Саша



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Natalie Shahova
2010-10-03 17:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rachel Douglas
Post by Natalie Shahova
А это грамматически правильно сказано?
Post by Rachel Douglas
Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees."
Да.
Сотрудники магазина не знали бы ответа на вопрос Уитмана. Но у нас очень
гибкий и сильный пассив.
Рейчел
Я смысл понимаю. Я не понимаю, как эта фраза устроена. Я не понимаю, как
able может относиться к вопросам. Я бы связала его с сотрудниками (the
store's employees would not be able to answer). А про вопрос я бы могла бы
сказать как-то вроде: Whitman's question сould not be answered by the
store's owners or employees.

Наталья Ш


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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-03 17:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Natalie Shahova
Post by Rachel Douglas
Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees."
А про вопрос я бы могла бы
сказать как-то вроде: Whitman's question сould not be answered by the
store's owners or employees.
He could not do = He was not able to do

He could not do = He would not be able to do

could not be answered = was not able to be answered

could not be answered = would not be able to be answered

... I'm not quite sure why, but in both instances the version with "would"
and "to be able" emphasizes the conditionality somewhat more.

R.



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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-03 18:03:19 UTC
Permalink
I guess the difference is in whether something was actually attempted or
not. With "could," that's ambiguous, but the other versions make it clear.
Post by Rachel Douglas
He could not do = He was not able to do
He tried, but he failed.
Post by Rachel Douglas
He could not do = He would not be able to do
If he were to try, he would fail.
Post by Rachel Douglas
could not be answered = was not able to be answered
The question was asked, but they were unable to answer it.
Post by Rachel Douglas
could not be answered = would not be able to be answered
If Whitman were really there and asked them such a question, they would be
unable to answer it.



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Alla Toff
2010-10-03 18:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Natalie Shahova
Я смысл понимаю. Я не понимаю, как эта фраза устроена. Я не понимаю, как
able может относиться к вопросам. Я бы связала его с сотрудниками (the
store's employees would not be able to answer). А про вопрос я бы могла бы
сказать как-то вроде: Whitman's question сould not be answered by the
store's owners or employees.
Наталья Ш
А у меня встречный вопрос.
Можно ли сказать: <Фермент, который в состоянии продуцировать...>
или <...белки, которые в состоянии вызвать изменение сигнала>?
Мне кажется, что <в состоянии> может быть человек, а не ферменты и белки.

Алла



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Natalie Shahova
2010-10-03 18:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alla Toff
А у меня встречный вопрос.
Можно ли сказать: <Фермент, который в состоянии продуцировать...>
или <...белки, которые в состоянии вызвать изменение сигнала>?
Мне кажется, что <в состоянии> может быть человек, а не ферменты и белки.
Алла
Мне кажется, что это из той же серии, что "Глава рассказывает" и "Принтеры
стремятся выполнить любое ваше желание", о которой мы недавно говорили.

Я такие фразы не люблю и стараюсь исправлять при редактировании. Но где
граница допустимого одушевления неодушевленных вещей, я не знаю.

Небо хмурилось, море искрилось весельем и т.п. - это поэзия, а заботливые
принтеры и разговорчивые главы - это моветон?

Наталья Ш


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Nikolai Kanykin
2010-10-03 18:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Здравствуйте!

From: "Natalie Shahova"
Post by Natalie Shahova
Я такие фразы не люблю и стараюсь исправлять при редактировании. Но где
граница допустимого одушевления неодушевленных вещей, я не знаю.
В тему (из рассылки шуток):

В СПбГУ теперь отправляются в корзину бумаги с началом такого типа:
"Физический факультет просит...". Как определил нынешний ректор СПбГУ
Николай Михайлович Кропачев: "Физический факультет - это здание, кирпич,
цемент, стекло, а здание просить не может!"

С уважением

--
Николай Каныкин

Сообщение отправлено 101003 в 21:29 Эст.



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Alla Toff
2010-10-03 18:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Вот и я не люблю, особенно в нелитературном тексте. И не знаю, исправлять ли
их, или это придирка.

Алла
----- Original Message -----
From: "Natalie Shahova" <natalie.shahova-***@public.gmane.org>
.
Post by Natalie Shahova
Я такие фразы не люблю и стараюсь исправлять при редактировании. Но где
граница допустимого одушевления неодушевленных вещей, я не знаю.
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Irina Knizhnik
2010-10-03 20:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Да, вот мне сочетание questions и "be able" очень не нравится,.
Возможно, потому что я не носитель языка.
Ирина Книжник
Post by Alla Toff
Вот и я не люблю, особенно в нелитературном тексте. И не знаю, исправлять ли
их, или это придирка.
Алла
----- Original Message -----
.
Post by Natalie Shahova
Я такие фразы не люблю и стараюсь исправлять при редактировании. Но где
граница допустимого одушевления неодушевленных вещей, я не знаю.
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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-03 20:39:07 UTC
Permalink
From: "Irina Knizhnik" <irina.knizhnik-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ru] would not be able to be answered
Post by Irina Knizhnik
Да, вот мне сочетание questions и "be able" очень не нравится,.
Возможно, потому что я не носитель языка.
Ирина Книжник
Post by Alla Toff
Вот и я не люблю, особенно в нелитературном тексте. И не знаю, исправлять
ли
их, или это придирка.
Алла
.
Post by Natalie Shahova
Я такие фразы не люблю и стараюсь исправлять при редактировании. Но где
граница допустимого одушевления неодушевленных вещей, я не знаю.
That's interesting; it didn't occur to me that inanimate subject + "to be
able" + passive was the problem you saw. I thought it must be a perceived
problem with the modality expressed by "would." To my ear, it sounds fine to
say that a question is not able to be answered, even if it's a bit wordier
than saying that a question cannot be answered. If a question were not able
to be answered, it would be an unanswerable question.

R.



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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-03 21:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rachel Douglas
To my ear, it sounds fine to
say that a question is not able to be answered, even if it's a bit wordier
than saying that a question cannot be answered. If a question were not able
to be answered, it would be an unanswerable question.
Further thoughts: it seems to me that there are some places where it's
advantageous to use "not be able to be," precisely in order to dovetail with
the conditional "would," as in the line about Whitman's question.

Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees.

If you wrote ...

The question could not be answered by them.

... there would be ambiguity as to whether it's meant to be the simple past
(the question cannot be answered / the question could not be answered), or
the conditional. But with "would not be able to be," it can't be anything
except the conditional.

R.



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Vera Fluhr
2010-10-03 20:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Уважаемые коллеги,
Мне нужно перевести названия специальностей, в области образования.
Контекста никакого нет, просто список.
Это не какие-то конкретные люди, это просто каталог специальностей

И у меня тут образовалось два вопроса (вернее, две группы вопросов):

1. Вот как, например, перевести название такой категории работников вышего
образования:
Professions & Applied Sciences Lecturer ?
К этой категории в моем тексте относятся, например,такие специальности:
- Social Work Lecturer (как это сказать?)
- Public Affairs Lecturer (тоже не знаю, как сказать)
ну и разные другие, более понятные

2. А как перевести название такой категории работников
профессионально-технического образования:
Apprentice & Trainee Instructor ?
В голове крутится "мастер-наставник", но ведь это неофициальное название, а
у меня все должно быть строго, это официальный документ...

Вот такие, например, специальности у меня в тексте относятся к этой
категории:
- Tiling Apprenticeship Instructor
- Carpentry & Joining Apprenticeship Instructor
и разные другие

Да и еще там есть
- Bricklaying Apprenticeship Instructor и Masonry Apprenticeship
Instructor
Какая разница между Bricklaying и Masonry? Я вообще не понимаю.

Заранее спасибо
Вера






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Nikolai Kanykin
2010-10-03 17:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Здравствуйте!

Спасибо, Лена и Рейчел!

Про мясо: я пытался понять, можно ли этой фразой щеголять в магазинах
Лондона, поэтому и выспрашивал, насколько она идиоматична.

Про мальчиков: меня смущает не сочетание grocery boys, а факт, что у них
спрашивают одновременно про мясо и бананы. Все-таки в больших магазинах эти
отделы (и их персонал) разделены территориально, так что бананами и мясом
должны бы заниматься разные boys. Ну да ладно, нельзя же требовать
технической точности от современного поэта при описании его представления о
классике.

С уважением

--
Николай Каныкин

Сообщение отправлено 101003 в 20:14 Эст.



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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-03 17:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Все-таки в больших магазинах эти
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
отделы (и их персонал) разделены территориально, так что бананами и мясом
должны бы заниматься разные boys.
Nah... Even these days, an "associate" in the meat department is supposed to
be able to answer basic questions about stuff throughout the store. All the
more so 50 years ago, when the square footage of a supermarket was a lot
smaller.

R.



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p***@public.gmane.org
2010-10-03 22:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Rachel.

I completely concur with your very pertinent analysis of the innuendos, both erotic and sociological.

About Nikolay's question - I still wonder whether pork chops or something similar isn't found in the gay culture/argot of Ginsberg's time (not to mention killing as a kind of anti-euphemism for (perhaps) rough sex????).

I think it would require the use of parallel jargon in any language into which such a poem would be translated - it would be quite a challenge.

Elliott
Post by Rachel Douglas
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
(Гомо)сексуальный подтекст, наверное, есть, но это - второй слой, который
скрывается под внешне обычными магазинными фразами, а меня сейчас
интересует, есть ли для англоязычного уха какой-то прямой смысл в
выражении
Who killed the pork chops? То есть, задаст ли кто-то такой вопрос в мясной
лавке в англоязычной стране без заднего умысла?
It's not what you'd call an ordinary conversational question, but the
meaning (без подтекста - which I don't know; although "poking among the
meats" is pretty obvious, since "meat"="flesh" and poking is... what they
do) would be clear: where did this meat come from? Even the Cliff
"These lines use supermarket imagery to denote a primal kind of sexuality,
rooted in nature but bastardized by the profit motive of industrialized
society. But they also pose questions of economics. In Whitman's day it
would have been natural for the consumer of food to know where the food came
from, who killed it, and how it got to their table. What is unsaid, yet
implied, is that Whitman's question would not be able to be answered by the
store's owners or employees."
http://www.gradesaver.com/allen-ginsbergs-poetry/study-guide/section7/
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
И еще - для меня было новым употребление grocery boys как общего описания
продавцов в супермаркете. Это тоже общепринятое применение, или
поэтическая
вольность?
Again, it's not a usual expression, but it's clearly understandable, along
with the innuendo. Normally, one speaks of "grocery store
clerks/stockers/employees" - or, in contemporary corporativist lingo which
had not yet been installed in Ginsberg's day, "associates." Ginsberg is
imagining Whitman, "poking among the meats," interested mainly in the male
ones, so it's an easy shift to "boys."
R.
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p***@public.gmane.org
2010-10-03 22:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Some quick research reveals the following:

pork chops. The buttocks. Sp. Chuletas de cerdo (culo).

AND

kill. To coit with a woman. Quite frequent in English bawdy verse:
&#171;With that he gave o&#8217;er and solemnly swore
He would kill her no more that night:
But bade her adieu; full little he knew
She would tempt him to more delight.
But when they should part it went to her heart.
And gave her more cause for to cry.
&#8216;O! kill me, kill me once again,
For now I am willing to die!&#8217;&#187; (Percy Ms., 17th c., in BURFORD, 85). Sp. Matar (copular, dicho del hombre).

If Rachel's and my sense of this part of the poem is valid, I don't think one can disentangle the erotic referents from supermarket surface.

Elliott


FROM:

DICTIONARY OF EUPHEMISMS AND DYSPHEMISMS IN ENGLISH EROTICA WITH SPANISH EQUIVALENTS

Francisco S&#225;nchez Benedito
University of M&#225;laga

pork chops. The buttocks. Sp. Chuletas de cerdo (culo).


bit of pork, a. Copulation. Sp. Un poco de carne de cerdo (coito).

boink. To coit with a woman. Echoic term, perhaps a var. of bonk, q.v.. US. sl.: &#171;[Ron Jeremy (the famous male porn star), as he crosses different porn stars at a porn convention]: &#8217;Fucked her...Porked her..

get some pork on one&#8217;s fork. (Of a male) to obtain some sexual intercourse. Austr. sl. Sp. Llevarse un poco de carne en el tenedor (copular, dicho del hombre).

gobble pork. To practise fellatio. Sp. Engullir carne de cerdo (hacer una felaci&#243;n).

piece of pork. The penis. US. college sl. Sp. Trozo de carne de cerdo (pene).

pork, to. To do the sex act; copulate. US. sl. See quot. at boink. Sp. Copular.

pork. The genitalia of a person viewed sexually. Sp. Carne de cerdo (genitales).

pork and bean. A homosexual. Austr. rhyming sl. = queen. Sp. Carne de cerdo y habichuelas (gay; argot rimado austr.: bean rima con queen).
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
Здравствуйте!
Фраза из известного стихотворения Гинзберга (привожу его ниже полностью).
Там Уитмен спрашивает у продавцов: Who killed the pork chops?
1. А.Пустогаров: Откуда эта свинина? (http://www.stihi.ru/2007/01/11-957)
2. А.Кальмейер: Кто зарезал свинье отбивные?
(http://art-of-arts.livejournal.com/104748.html)
3. А.Сергеев: Кто убил поросят? (http://www.uspoetry.ru/poem/66)
<Who killed the pork chops?> - идиома, как мне кажется, означающая - <свежие
ли свиные отбивные?>
1) как понимать Who killed the pork chops? и
2) прав ли Маркелов? Тогда верным будет перевод "Когда хрюкали эти
отбивные?"
3) Есть ли у коллег свои мнения по поводу перевода верлибра? Найденные в
сети 17 ссылок на запрос "пеервод верлибра" я прочитал.
Заранее благодарен.
A Supermarket in California--Allen Ginsberg
What thoughts I have of you tonight, Walt Whitman, for
I walked down the sidestreets under the trees with a headache
self-conscious looking at the full moon.
In my hungry fatigue, and shopping for images, I went
into the neon fruit supermarket, dreaming of your enumerations!
What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families
shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the
avocados, babies in the tomatoes!--and you, Garcia Lorca, what
were you doing down by the watermelons?
I saw you, Walt Whitman, childless, lonely old grubber,
poking among the meats in the refrigerator and eyeing the grocery
boys.
I heard you asking questions of each: Who killed the
pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel?
I wandered in and out of the brilliant stacks of cans
following you, and followed in my imagination by the store
detective.
We strode down the open corridors together in our
solitary fancy tasting artichokes, possessing every frozen
delicacy, and never passing the cashier.
Where are we going, Walt Whitman? The doors close in
an hour. Which way does your beard point tonight?
(I touch your book and dream of our odyssey in the
supermarket and feel absurd.)
Will we walk all night through solitary streets? The
trees add shade to shade, lights out in the houses, we'll both be
lonely.
Will we stroll dreaming of the lost America of love
past blue automobiles in driveways, home to our silent cottage?
Ah, dear father, graybeard, lonely old courage-teacher,
what America did you have when Charon quit poling his ferry and
you got out on a smoking bank and stood watching the boat
disappear on the black waters of Lethe?
С уважением
--
Николай Каныкин
Сообщение отправлено 101003 в 12:02 Эст.
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Nikolai Kanykin
2010-10-04 06:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Здравствуйте!

From: <penrhyn854-***@public.gmane.org>
pork chops. The buttocks. Sp. Chuletas de cerdo (culo).
kill. To coit with a woman.

Элиотт, благодарю за такое обширное исследование. Конечно, я не собирался
отказываться от эротического подтекста, но, на мой взгляд, нужно, чтобы сам
вопрос был совершенно невинным и обычным магазинным вопросом. Например (и
тут перевод grocery boys в мясной отдел неожиданно поможет, т.к. нам автор
"разрешил" перемещать персонал внутри магазина), по-русски таким
классически-невинным будет вопрос в хлебном отделе про булки: "У вас булки
мягкие?"

Если все-таки вернуть Уитмена к холодильнику, то это может быть просьба:
"Покажите окорочка!" (но теряется ритм вопросительной интонации) или вопрос
"Хороши ли ваши филейчики?"

Такой вопрос не стыдно задать в любом магазине и рассчитывать на буквальный
ответ. Можно ли так же невинно задать вопрос Who killed the pork chops? в
супермаркете 2010 года - вот что я пытаюсь узнать. Да или нет.

В любом случае, ничего этого нет в трех найденных в сети переводах.

С уважением

--
Николай Каныкин

Сообщение отправлено 101004 в 9:26 Эст.




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k***@public.gmane.org
2010-10-04 06:46:10 UTC
Permalink
А еслО:

"КтП ЌучОл этО фОлейчОкО?"

В. КПрПль
ЗЎравствуйте!
pork chops. The buttocks. Sp. Chuletas de cerdo (culo).
kill. To coit with a woman.
ЭлОПтт, благПЎарю за такПе ПбшОрМПе ОсслеЎПваМОе. КПМечМП, я Ме
сПбОрался
Птказываться Пт эрПтОческПгП пПЎтекста, МП, Ма ЌПй взгляЎ, МужМП, чтПбы
саЌ
вПпрПс был сПвершеММП МевОММыЌ О ПбычМыЌ ЌагазОММыЌ вПпрПсПЌ. НапрОЌер
(О
тут перевПЎ grocery boys в ЌясМПй ПтЎел МеПжОЎаММП пПЌПжет, т.к. МаЌ
автПр
"разрешОл" переЌещать персПМал вМутрО ЌагазОМа), пП-русскО такОЌ
классОческО-МевОММыЌ буЎет вПпрПс в хлебМПЌ ПтЎеле прП булкО: "У вас
булкО
ЌягкОе?"
"ППкажОте ПкПрПчка!" (МП теряется рОтЌ вПпрПсОтельМПй ОМтПМацОО) ОлО
вПпрПс
"ХПрПшО лО вашО фОлейчОкО?"
ТакПй вПпрПс Ме стыЎМП заЎать в любПЌ ЌагазОМе О рассчОтывать Ма
буквальМый
Птвет. МПжМП лО так же МевОММП заЎать вПпрПс Who killed the pork chops?
в
суперЌаркете 2010 гПЎа - вПт чтП я пытаюсь узМать. Да ОлО Мет.
В любПЌ случае, МОчегП этПгП Мет в трех МайЎеММых в сетО перевПЎах.
С уважеМОеЌ
--
НОкПлай КаМыкОМ
СППбщеМОе ПтправлеМП 101004 в 9:26 Эст.
Natalie Shahova
2010-10-04 06:53:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@public.gmane.org
"КтП ЌучОл этО фОлейчОкО?"
ПреЎставляю себе глаза прПЎавщОцы ЌясМПгП ПтЎела!

Наталья К
ekaterina
2010-10-04 09:06:59 UTC
Permalink
п÷я─п╬п╢п╟п╡я┴п╦я├я▀... п·п╫п╟ п╤п╣ п╪п╟п╩я┤я▀п╨ п╦я┴п╬.

п≤ п╬ п╢я─я┐пЁп╬п╪: я─п╟п╥п╡п╣ grocery boys п©я─п╦п©п╦я│п╟п╫я▀ п╨ п╬п©я─п╣п╢п╣п╩п╣п╫п╫п╬п╪я┐ п╬я┌п╢п╣п╩я┐ п©я─п╬п╢п╬п╡п╬п╩я▄я│я┌п╡п╣п╫п╫п╬пЁп╬ п╪п╟пЁп╟п╥п╦п╫п╟, п╡я─п╬п╢п╣ п╨п╟п╨ groceries - я█я┌п╬ п╡п╬п╬п╠я┴п╣ п©я─п╬п╢я┐п╨я┌я▀?

п 
"п я┌п╬ п╪я┐я┤п╦п╩ я█я┌п╦ я└п╦п╩п╣п╧я┤п╦п╨п╦?"
п÷я─п╣п╢я│я┌п╟п╡п╩я▐я▌ я│п╣п╠п╣ пЁп╩п╟п╥п╟ п©я─п╬п╢п╟п╡я┴п╦я├я▀ п╪я▐я│п╫п╬пЁп╬ п╬я┌п╢п╣п╩п╟!
п²п╟я┌п╟п╩я▄я▐ п╗
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Nikolai Kanykin
2010-10-04 10:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Здравствуйте!

From: "ekaterina"
разве grocery boys приписаны к определенному отделу продовольственного
магазина, вроде как groceries - это вообще продукты?
Это был один из первых вопросов ветки.

Фридик http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grocery+boy говорит:
Noun 1. grocery boy - a delivery boy for groceries




С уважением

--
Николай Каныкин

Сообщение отправлено 101004 в 13:24 Эст.




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Rachel Douglas
2010-10-04 09:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
Можно ли так же невинно задать вопрос Who killed the pork chops? в
супермаркете 2010 года - вот что я пытаюсь узнать. Да или нет.
Можно невинно (в предполагаемом смысле "Where did this meat come from?"), но
звучит странно. ... Just strange enough to get the reader thinking! Because
normally, one wouldn't ask it that way.

Where did this meat come from?
Who slaughtered the hog from which these pork chops were cut?
Who killed the pig these pork chops were cut from?

But "killed the pork chops" is rivetting, because it talks about killing the
chops, as opposed to killing the animal. So immediately you hear that
something else must be going on, too, even if you're not sure what it is.
That was my reaction, anyway.

R.



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Nikolai Kanykin
2010-10-05 05:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Здравствуйте!

Элиотт и Рейчел, спасибо, что развеяли последние сомнения.

С уважением

--
Николай Каныкин

Сообщение отправлено 101005 в 8:27 Эст.



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p***@public.gmane.org
2010-10-05 17:48:33 UTC
Permalink
You're welcome, Nikolay!

A very interesting discussion.


Всего доброго,

Эллиотт
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
Здравствуйте!
Элиотт и Рейчел, спасибо, что развеяли последние сомнения.
С уважением
--
Николай Каныкин
Сообщение отправлено 101005 в 8:27 Эст.
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p***@public.gmane.org
2010-10-04 11:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
Такой вопрос не стыдно задать в любом магазине и рассчитывать на буквальный
ответ. Можно ли так же невинно задать вопрос Who killed the pork chops? в
супермаркете 2010 года - вот что я пытаюсь узнать. Да или нет.
Здравствуйте, Николай!

По-моему, нет.

I essentially agree with Rachel - though I would insist more strongly, in my opinion, that not even Ginsberg would actually go into a supermarket and ask "Who killed the pork chops?"

And it's not a matter of innocence (невинно) - but of sense - the question would sound crazy or jesting.

С уважением,

Эллиотт





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p***@public.gmane.org
2010-10-04 02:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi again,

Some additional support from a Spanish translation of the poem:

Te vi Walt Whitman, sin hijos, viejo mendigo solitario, hurgan-
do entre las carnes del refrigerador y ech&#225;ndole el ojo a los
muchachos de las verduras.
Te o&#237; hacerles preguntas a todos: ****&#191;Qui&#233;n mat&#243; las chuletas de
cerdo?**** &#191;Qu&#233; valen los pl&#225;tanos? &#191;Acaso eres t&#250; mi Angel? (source below).

As i mentioned earlier:

pork chops. The buttocks. Sp. Chuletas de cerdo (culo).

Sp. Matar [literally "to kill"] (copular, dicho del hombre) [to copulate, said of the man].

I have no idea how this might work in Russian - but I'm convinced this "Who killed the
pork chops?" is gay slang.

Elliott

SOURCE - p. 41 of

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kIhD-meSR30J:isaiasgarde.myfil.es/get_file%3Fpath%3D/ginsberg-allen-aullido-y-otros.pdf+%22pork+chops%22+%22buttocks%22+%22ginsberg+%22&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiXhypq7KdTy2C3umD6Z_QaewuVfBMHswszEVtVw5xC6EtuMs2TMa2iR3_MPnxiijxOuF8GR3N0bU0Uf_Zn2ZGHsrFH7HtiA5QB8Cq3RbId1XjWjfwthmgENN9qCUNlMoNtpdk4&sig=AHIEtbQsREaPHWBbRPduX05_HtK0YsmkIg
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
Здравствуйте!
Фраза из известного стихотворения Гинзберга (привожу его ниже полностью).
Там Уитмен спрашивает у продавцов: Who killed the pork chops?
1. А.Пустогаров: Откуда эта свинина? (http://www.stihi.ru/2007/01/11-957)
2. А.Кальмейер: Кто зарезал свинье отбивные?
(http://art-of-arts.livejournal.com/104748.html)
3. А.Сергеев: Кто убил поросят? (http://www.uspoetry.ru/poem/66)
<Who killed the pork chops?> - идиома, как мне кажется, означающая - <свежие
ли свиные отбивные?>
1) как понимать Who killed the pork chops? и
2) прав ли Маркелов? Тогда верным будет перевод "Когда хрюкали эти
отбивные?"
3) Есть ли у коллег свои мнения по поводу перевода верлибра? Найденные в
сети 17 ссылок на запрос "пеервод верлибра" я прочитал.
Заранее благодарен.
A Supermarket in California--Allen Ginsberg
What thoughts I have of you tonight, Walt Whitman, for
I walked down the sidestreets under the trees with a headache
self-conscious looking at the full moon.
In my hungry fatigue, and shopping for images, I went
into the neon fruit supermarket, dreaming of your enumerations!
What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families
shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the
avocados, babies in the tomatoes!--and you, Garcia Lorca, what
were you doing down by the watermelons?
I saw you, Walt Whitman, childless, lonely old grubber,
poking among the meats in the refrigerator and eyeing the grocery
boys.
I heard you asking questions of each: Who killed the
pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel?
I wandered in and out of the brilliant stacks of cans
following you, and followed in my imagination by the store
detective.
We strode down the open corridors together in our
solitary fancy tasting artichokes, possessing every frozen
delicacy, and never passing the cashier.
Where are we going, Walt Whitman? The doors close in
an hour. Which way does your beard point tonight?
(I touch your book and dream of our odyssey in the
supermarket and feel absurd.)
Will we walk all night through solitary streets? The
trees add shade to shade, lights out in the houses, we'll both be
lonely.
Will we stroll dreaming of the lost America of love
past blue automobiles in driveways, home to our silent cottage?
Ah, dear father, graybeard, lonely old courage-teacher,
what America did you have when Charon quit poling his ferry and
you got out on a smoking bank and stood watching the boat
disappear on the black waters of Lethe?
С уважением
--
Николай Каныкин
Сообщение отправлено 101003 в 12:02 Эст.
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p***@public.gmane.org
2010-10-04 03:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Sorry -

Te vi Walt Whitman, sin hijos, viejo mendigo solitario, hurgan-
do entre las carnes del refrigerador y echandole el ojo a los
muchachos de las verduras.
Te oi hacerles preguntas a todos: ?Quien mato las
chuletas de
cerdo?**** ?Que valen los platanos? ?Acaso eres tu mi
Angel?
Post by p***@public.gmane.org
Hi again,
Te vi Walt Whitman, sin hijos, viejo mendigo solitario, hurgan-
do entre las carnes del refrigerador y echandole el ojo a los
muchachos de las verduras.Te oi hacerles preguntas a todos: ?Quien ****mato las
chuletas de cerdo?**** ?Que valen los platanos? ?Acaso eres tu mi
Angel?
(source below).
Post by p***@public.gmane.org
pork chops. The buttocks. Sp. Chuletas de cerdo (culo).
Sp. Matar [literally "to kill"] (copular, dicho del hombre) [to copulate, said of the man].
I have no idea how this might work in Russian - but I'm convinced this "Who killed the
pork chops?" is gay slang.
Elliott
SOURCE - p. 41 of
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kIhD-meSR30J:isaiasgarde.myfil.es/get_file%3Fpath%3D/ginsberg-allen-aullido-y-otros.pdf+%22pork+chops%22+%22buttocks%22+%22ginsberg+%22&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiXhypq7KdTy2C3umD6Z_QaewuVfBMHswszEVtVw5xC6EtuMs2TMa2iR3_MPnxiijxOuF8GR3N0bU0Uf_Zn2ZGHsrFH7HtiA5QB8Cq3RbId1XjWjfwthmgENN9qCUNlMoNtpdk4&sig=AHIEtbQsREaPHWBbRPduX05_HtK0YsmkIg
Post by Nikolai Kanykin
Здравствуйте!
Фраза из известного стихотворения Гинзберга (привожу его ниже полностью).
Там Уитмен спрашивает у продавцов: Who killed the pork chops?
1. А.Пустогаров: Откуда эта свинина? (http://www.stihi.ru/2007/01/11-957)
2. А.Кальмейер: Кто зарезал свинье отбивные?
(http://art-of-arts.livejournal.com/104748.html)
3. А.Сергеев: Кто убил поросят? (http://www.uspoetry.ru/poem/66)
<Who killed the pork chops?> - идиома, как мне кажется, означающая - <свежие
ли свиные отбивные?>
1) как понимать Who killed the pork chops? и
2) прав ли Маркелов? Тогда верным будет перевод "Когда хрюкали эти
отбивные?"
3) Есть ли у коллег свои мнения по поводу перевода верлибра? Найденные в
сети 17 ссылок на запрос "пеервод верлибра" я прочитал.
Заранее благодарен.
A Supermarket in California--Allen Ginsberg
What thoughts I have of you tonight, Walt Whitman, for
I walked down the sidestreets under the trees with a headache
self-conscious looking at the full moon.
In my hungry fatigue, and shopping for images, I went
into the neon fruit supermarket, dreaming of your enumerations!
What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families
shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the
avocados, babies in the tomatoes!--and you, Garcia Lorca, what
were you doing down by the watermelons?
I saw you, Walt Whitman, childless, lonely old grubber,
poking among the meats in the refrigerator and eyeing the grocery
boys.
I heard you asking questions of each: Who killed the
pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel?
I wandered in and out of the brilliant stacks of cans
following you, and followed in my imagination by the store
detective.
We strode down the open corridors together in our
solitary fancy tasting artichokes, possessing every frozen
delicacy, and never passing the cashier.
Where are we going, Walt Whitman? The doors close in
an hour. Which way does your beard point tonight?
(I touch your book and dream of our odyssey in the
supermarket and feel absurd.)
Will we walk all night through solitary streets? The
trees add shade to shade, lights out in the houses, we'll both be
lonely.
Will we stroll dreaming of the lost America of love
past blue automobiles in driveways, home to our silent cottage?
Ah, dear father, graybeard, lonely old courage-teacher,
what America did you have when Charon quit poling his ferry and
you got out on a smoking bank and stood watching the boat
disappear on the black waters of Lethe?
С уважением
--
Николай Каныкин
Сообщение отправлено 101003 в 12:02 Эст.
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